Curse

Fury Incarnate · Mar 13, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Very high ranks of the various PvP titles tend to impress me, as it (usually) takes both time and ability to level them.

The vast majority of PvE titles are either buy-able or grind-able. There are a few that I find impressive, in particular the Treasure Hunter title. As a pro chest runner, I know exactly how much work it is to level this title and that this is a title that takes some real playing ability to get (no matter how much you play, you're not going to hit 10k high-end chests without some serious running, aggro, and either mercantile or people skills). Also, LDoA and max Master of the North are fairly impressive.

Res Ipsi · Mar 13, 2008, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

The discussion is about PvP vs PvE titles not players.

Not quite. You've made several references that directly challenge the skill required to obtain PvE titles - thereby questioning player ability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

For the last time, when you go into any PvE elite area (DoA/Urgoz/Deep/UW/FoW/or even Slavers if it qualifies), you know exactly what monsters you will find there, you know exactly what the AI is going to do when you aggro, you know exactly what skills every monster is going to use, and you know exactly which build is known to finish that area. Other than predicting the general build the opponent team is running in PvP, you have no such luxury.

You make it sound like each foe advertises what skill it will use and when, and it doesn't work that way - especially in HM. I'm sure the same could be said when you find yourself facing whatever FOTM opponent in HA. You know what skills they're likely to be equipped with, what targets they're likely to go after first, what strategy they're likely to use on a certain map, etc. This knowledge is based on experience with HA, and given enough incentive to do PvP, I'm quite certain most decent PvE'rs out there would learn the same. [/QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

Most PvP players started in PvE, but to say that a group of 8 players got 58 points in fame in the first few hours ever they spent in HA is simply not possible. If you think it is, then you clearly didn't spend enough time in HA.

I think he makes his case in his response to your post, so will not comment on this point.

Zamochit · Mar 13, 2008, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drop of Fear

1200+ guilds can make a deal to farm each other champ points
ppl are selling 1200+ guilds to ebayers who want to "buy" some champ points

everything can be done the cheap way.

Sigh
oh well the last bastion of skill>time dies
now it's Money>all

Sir Pandra Pierva · Mar 13, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

there was a time before it was money>all?

romeus petrus · Mar 13, 2008, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

Not quite. You've made several references that directly challenge the skill required to obtain PvE titles - thereby questioning player ability.

Absolutely, PvE titles are a grind fest. There is no skill required other than patience and dedication. This is very different from saying that PvE players are unskilled, which is what you're implying that I'm saying. Again in case you missed it: PvE titles are a grind fest and do not require any gameplay skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

You make it sound like each foe advertises what skill it will use and when, and it doesn't work that way - especially in HM.

Oh yes it does, it is called Wiki. If you want to know the entire skill bar of any monster in the game in any area, just go there and look for it. There are even suggestions on how to counter certain monster types. It is a simple as that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

I'm sure the same could be said when you find yourself facing whatever FOTM opponent in HA. You know what skills they're likely to be equipped with, what targets they're likely to go after first, what strategy they're likely to use on a certain map, etc. This knowledge is based on experience with HA, and given enough incentive to do PvP, I'm quite certain most decent PvE'rs out there would learn the same.

Guessing what skills or builds your opponent is "likely" to use is very different from knowing EXACTLY what skills certain monsters use and their hardwired behavior that they repeat time after time after time, no matter how many times you kill them with the same build and taking advantage of the same exploit. Does the name Duncan The Black ring a bell?

Res Ipsi · Mar 14, 2008, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

Absolutely, PvE titles are a grind fest. There is no skill required other than patience and dedication. This is very different from saying that PvE players are unskilled, which is what you're implying that I'm saying. Again in case you missed it: PvE titles are a grind fest and do not require any gameplay skills.

I fail to see the difference, as I'm sure others do, but let's not debate it further since neither of us is willing to concede this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

Oh yes it does, it is called Wiki. If you want to know the entire skill bar of any monster in the game in any area, just go there and look for it. There are even suggestions on how to counter certain monster types. It is a simple as that.

I can honestly say I have never used to Wiki to see what monster skills I might be facing when entering an area, but do admit I have used it to locate skill caps or to check out armors. For the rest of game, I prefer to think for myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

Does the name Duncan The Black ring a bell?

It does indeed. Once you find an effective way to kill him, are you suggesting we re-invent the wheel and find novel ways to do so? If you find an effective counter to a particular build in PvP, do you find novel ways to counter it to make things more interesting, or do you go with the tried and true? I fail to see how using an effective (i.e., cookie-cutter) build to defeat an end-boss is any different from the way a PvP group would generate a build for HA. Again, let's agree to disagree on this point, since neither of us is likely to convince the other.

cellardweller · Mar 14, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

The problem with titles, both PvE and PvP, is that they are an indication of "how much" rather than "how well". When you start losing fame for losses in HA or change pve titles to be for completion speed without pve skills/consumables or somesuch then they might begin to command respect. Right now they mean nothing.

romeus petrus · Mar 14, 2008, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

I can honestly say I have never used to Wiki to see what monster skills I might be facing when entering an area, but do admit I have used it to locate skill caps or to check out armors. For the rest of game, I prefer to think for myself.

Whether you use it or not yourself, it is available and free for all to use. So anyone who cares to know can easily find out exactly what a certain monster uses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Res Ipsi

It does indeed. Once you find an effective way to kill him, are you suggesting we re-invent the wheel and find novel ways to do so? If you find an effective counter to a particular build in PvP, do you find novel ways to counter it to make things more interesting, or do you go with the tried and true? I fail to see how using an effective (i.e., cookie-cutter) build to defeat an end-boss is any different from the way a PvP group would generate a build for HA. Again, let's agree to disagree on this point, since neither of us is likely to convince the other.

The reason I brought up Duncan the black is just to demonstrate the difference between AI behavior and human behavior. Do you think that if Duncan was a human player he would keep targeting the Necro who's continously protted and ignore the monks keeping him alive?

The AI has a very known hardwired behavior pattern, that makes killing them a joke as demonstarted above. That is not the case in PvP.

tmakinen · Mar 14, 2008, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The problem with titles, both PvE and PvP, is that they are an indication of "how much" rather than "how well". When you start losing fame for losses in HA or change pve titles to be for completion speed without pve skills/consumables or somesuch then they might begin to command respect. Right now they mean nothing.

Cellardweller wins the thread

Redfeather1975 · Mar 14, 2008, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Yeah titles should drop when you don't maintain a certain level of performance.
I think that would be cool and make the titles have more weight, but that would piss off a lot of people too.

Proff · Mar 14, 2008, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Only pve titles are legenday vanquisher and legendary master of the north, lmotn not so much cause of ursan though.

TempVariable · Mar 14, 2008, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Any title that is currently greater than mine

The Way Out · Mar 14, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

"God of Spammers" is the greatest title ever... hands down... +1

Numa Pompilius · Mar 14, 2008, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The problem with titles, both PvE and PvP, is that they are an indication of "how much" rather than "how well". When you start losing fame for losses in HA or change pve titles to be for completion speed without pve skills/consumables or somesuch then they might begin to command respect. Right now they mean nothing.

Epic threadwin.

enter_the_zone · Mar 14, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera

None of the PvE titles impress me.

PvE: Time > skill
PvP: Skill > time

Certain PvP titles are the most grindy in the game, and plenty of people play lame ass builds like sway to get them. Skill is not a requirement for all pvp titles, Hero is an example of a case where

PvP: time (+meta cc builds) > skill.

Especially as some of the meta builds don't require much skill to play.

On the whole though, I'd agree that PvP titles in general are more difficult to get and require a level of skill, whereas there are plenty of lame ways to get PVE titles. Legendary Vanquisher and Guardian titles pisses me off, as there are so many people who are too lazy or too crap to get this themselves, so they pay someone to clear the zones/run the missions.

Res Ipsi · Mar 15, 2008, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

Whether you use it or not yourself, it is available and free for all to use. So anyone who cares to know can easily find out exactly what a certain monster uses.

Again, the same can be said for the myriad of PvP builds (how to run them; how to counter them) cluttering up the various GW-related Boards. I don't assume all PvP enthusiasts visit these boards to find a build, but I'm sure plenty do. Does that make them unskilled players?

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

The reason I brought up Duncan the black is just to demonstrate the difference between AI behavior and human behavior. Do you think that if Duncan was a human player he would keep targeting the Necro who's continously protted and ignore the monks keeping him alive?

Given the odds, I'd think a human in Duncan's place would /resign

Bowstring Badass · Mar 15, 2008, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The problem with titles, both PvE and PvP, is that they are an indication of "how much" rather than "how well". When you start losing fame for losses in HA or change pve titles to be for completion speed without pve skills/consumables or somesuch then they might begin to command respect. Right now they mean nothing.

They mean something... How much time you wasted lol.

MarlinBackna · Mar 15, 2008, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

Yeah titles should drop when you don't maintain a certain level of performance.
I think that would be cool and make the titles have more weight, but that would piss off a lot of people too.

This goes against what GW originally stood for completely. The reason I like GW is that I can walk away from the game for weeks/months at a time then come back to it the same way you left it. "Maintaining" titles would completely ruin the very small amount of fun title-hunting gets me, for then it would be like any other MMO with a subscription that makes me play because I have to, not because I want to. Now I know people would say "then why get the titles in the first place?", but that is why titles were part of the movement away from original GW ideology....

UltimaSlash · Mar 23, 2008, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera

None of the PvE titles impress me.

PvE: Time > skill
PvP: Skill > time

The only titles that still impress me are gladiator 8+, champ 4+, hero 12+

I'd have to disagree in terms of the hero rank. Rank 12+ to me only means that you spent a lot of time farming fame with gimmick builds like iway, sway, or back in 2005 when you could hold halls for 5 hours straight, which requires more time than skill. A glad 8+ title however, is still very impressive to me.

yesitsrob · Mar 23, 2008, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

None of the PvE titles impress me.

PvE: Time > skill
PvP: Skill > time

I know you probably posted that a while ago but it's an absolute load of bollocks... Both are Time > Skill. Pve is certainly Time > Skill. PVP you can have like Shitting Spirits and Olias > Skill, or Blood Spike > Skill, or in the past... Searing Flames > Skill, Recall Splitting > Skill, FC LIGHTNING ORB IN 321 > Skill. Oh Guild Wars.

I personally used to think little of HA titles, and was more interested in getting a decent glad one - but now I think TA is probably the worse arena in Guild Wars.